Seat Safety

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:58 pm
At the recent Sebring race there was a significant crash involving a number of cars. Well discussed elsewhere.

Several drivers suffered some injuries including broken ribs. The Butler seat was bent on one side in the area of the rib cage.

This arrangement in the SRF has concerned me for some time as there appears to be a vulnerability to side impacts. The individual had the Butler helmet restraints which no doubt helped during impact. However, this particular seat did not have support in the shoulder area relying solely upon support of the rib cage.

It would be good if everyone considers their vulnerability to side impacts. There should be a good helmet restraint system (not just the padding on the roll bars) and sufficient lateral support in the shoulder area.

Chris

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:22 pm
Is there a solution for shoulder support/cushioning? I imagine a custom foam insert would have helped with the rib injuries?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:39 pm
Best seat setup I have seen was my old car. Widest butler seat I have ever seen in an srf and I poured a bead seat into it. No way I could get just my ribs hit. Supported my side entirely. Problem is you have to be small to really build a seat up like that.

The butlers that just support the ribs and not much above that scared me for the reasons above.
Joe Cooley
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:29 am
Last year I happened to sit next to 2 folks from NASCAR's safety organization on a flight to Charlotte. I showed them photos of my seat at the time, which included a Butler seat and the "new-style" Butler head support. Both gents disliked the head support without adding shoulder support. They were adamant that in a side impact, my head would stop but my upper body would continue moving - this could cause a neck injury.

The guys had additional concerns about the Butler rib supports and how they protruded/wrapped around the ribs. They felt the supports would likely break ribs in an accident; which appears to be true. They said the best seats provide the bulk of their support in the pelvis and thigh area with secondary support in the shoulder area. By secondary, they detailed that the shoulder support should be significant enough to hold the driver's upper body "mostly" still in an accident but not significant enough to interfere with steering or shifting. The one gent suggested 1 - 1.5 inches of shoulder movement being right. These guys appeared to be the head honchos in charge of NASCAR safety and were very impressive. Food for thought...

Since that flight I have installed the Butler shoulder supports, which I would say are okay but not great. IMHO, I agree with Joe that the safest option for us is an oversized Butler seat, with greatly reduced rib supports, and foam it. Then add as much shoulder support as you can.
Ted Wentz
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:07 pm
After what I went through, I am looking at all options for improved safety. The Butler makes you sit about an inch higher than the fiberglass seat. For those of you who have seen my video, you know that I didn't have an extra inch to spare, so a Butler is out of the question. I would consider creating a creafoam insert to the fiberglass seat. I would have to form it so that it makes me sit in more of a reclined position to keep my head at or below the current height. I believe a foam insert could have prevented the compression fracture to my lower vertebra. I think you could also build up some shoulder support with one of these kits. Is it legal to do this? I seem to remember something about not being able to move the driver forward in the rules.

The other injury I had was from my legs flopping around and being punctured by the broken steering column. I ended up with a swollen and bruised knee and stitches in my leg. At this time I don't have any answers or ideas on this, but hope that some good ideas come from the Spec Racer community.

John
John Greene
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:58 pm
Maybe another option is to remove the GCR mandated seats and open it up to user preference like most if not all other classes. Then we can purchase new and improved seats. Our current Butler seat reminds me of 70 -80's NASCAR seat and they have come so much further in safety and development. Yes it would be an expensive swap, but only for those who values their safety more than an extra weekend or two of racing.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:07 pm
On the steering column, I've always had this padded with a piece of rollbar padding. Note that there is an authorized modification in the GCR to cleanly and smoothly cut off the unused portion.

While you can't move the fiberglass seat forward, there's nothing in the rules preventing you from putting in a reasonable amount of foam (though "reasonable" is subjective and not a term published in the GCR.) I recall in the Sports Renault days that we had a very small racer woman from Hawaii that came to race in So Cal, who had a seat insert and head rest custom made to fit the fiberglass seat so she could reach the steering wheel and pedals. This is one area where the rules may need updating, since it's allowed to foam the seat, but not to increase the thickness of the headrest.

I bring up the headrest because that's a critical element as well if you move your head forward in the fiberglass seat, even with the HANS. I believe that one of the most serious injuries sustained in an SR was from a driver who had foamed the seat to move his position forward, but did not pad out the headrest to compensate, and sustained a serious neck injury in a crash. My points are not to discourage building a safe environment but be careful about unintended consequences (e.g. being able top quickly exit the car in the event of a fire.)

The compression fracture is a challenge (I've suffered two in racing accidents; one in a kart and one in the SRF). With a steeper seat angle, more energy is transferred to the lower back, so I'm not sure a more reclined position would be beneficial (though I have since added Confour padding to my Butler seat to offer some cushioning.)
Bob Breton - SRF 51 - San Francisco Region
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:29 pm
My thought on the reclined position was to keep my head in the same position as it would be from just the fiberglass seat. I really couldn't sit higher or further forward, which is what would happen if I just poured foam into the seat without reclining a little. I would assume the foam would absorb some of the impact and be less stressful on the back, obviously the fiberglass doesn't give any.
John Greene
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:29 pm
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Last edited by john_greene on Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John Greene
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:09 pm
On the steering column, I read John's post as saying it broke... which presents a different danger than the excess length of the adjustment bracket. I guess one could put a kevlar sleeve around it, since it's one of the very few parts that seems possible to break in the cockpit.
Personally, I'm curious how it broke... I assume it's obvious when you're looking at it.

I wasn't aware the butler seats had a shoulder support option... gotta look into that!
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