Seat Safety

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:08 pm
I was told that Enterprises is developing a wider fiberglass seat that will allow for a poured/bead seat. I was also told it is permissible to modify the fiberglass seat to allow the same. The rules allow for padding for the drivers comfort. I guess one could argue that is does specify rather that is physical or mental comfort. Please check with your CSR or Enterprises before modifying.

Scott Rettich has a poured seat in his car that I believe they just poured into the standard fiberglass shell. They told me that they do it themselves. Was a nice looking seat. Looked like the only thing missing was a cup holder.

I was planning on doing this after rupturing a lumbar disk in qualifying at the run-offs last year without hitting anything. I never realized until afterwards that I had about a 1-2" gap between my back and the seat at my lumbar.

Happy to hear that you are doing good John. That was scary.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:02 pm
They are, and Mike Davies sent me these pics of the first sample about a week ago. More info to follow soon, I hope.
The black BSCI foam seems to be the current state of the art, and I've seen a few seats poured into the standard fiberglass seat, and at least one where the seat was "modified" to the point of being almost nonexistent and the cavity filled like a formula car tub. I have had one seat builder tell me that you want to have at least an inch of clearance between you and the shell (sides), for good flow when pouring the seat.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:47 am
Seems this topic comes up every few years. Good arguments on both sides of this debate Butler vs Fiberglass seat.
Many don’t like this Butler seat just for the way it sits you in the car. If you are used to the fiberglass position, this one is a bit different. I know Mark Eaton, Brian, Cliff, and clearly Denny (see above!) are not fans of this seat. If you’re tall it may not work for this reason…. But for many it does work and well.

Denny gave you his comments based on someone that is a fan of the Fiberglass Seat. So here are my comments from someone that has used this Butler seat since it was first introduced back well before the HANS came out back with the Renault G1 car. I have been in my fair share of “find the wall” and “climb the wall” moments over the years. I think I have managed to tag just about every corner at Road Atlanta even the bridge turn before the 10a/b complex was put in. Same with Summit Point in WVA. The worst crash I remember was at VIR. Coming out of South Bend I lost it and made a looping spin that put in right in the middle of the track facing to drivers left. To my horror I see another SRF coming over the hill and toward me. This is a 90 MPH corner (Faster now but that was G2 years ago) that is blind on the exit so he had no idea I was sitting in his path. He also most likely was past the flag station so may not have been warned. He got turned to driver’s right and his LR contacted my LR and we went flying. It knocked the wind out of me and was the hardest impact I have ever had. I walked away with nothing more than bruises and a really messed up car. (One of the only times I can remember having to head home on the test day. Crushed the left rear, stuffed the axel through the tranny, ripped the rocker supports out of the frame, broke the wheel, etc…) Was this as hard as Jean Luc’s crash at Road America or what happened at Sebring. No…. I am sure it was not. But it was also not small. And had there been a 2nd or 3rd impact that Butler seat was still rock solid. Yes, I fit really tight in this seat and have no movement. So to Denny’s point, regardless of your seat choice, make sure you fit well.

My biggest issue with the Fiberglass Seat is its connection to the car. It’s just not as solid. Even a non-maintained fiberglass seat setup may do fine on the first impact, but what about the 2nd or 3rd? I know that does not happen often, but it could. Imagine something in the middle of a big field at Road America through the kink. (Its happened) I want a rock solid seat! So again, even if you choose the Fiberglass Seat, make sure its solid. Check the seat itself and make sure the structural integrity of the glass is still good. (It’s not cracked, splintered, or broken) Just make sure the attachments to the seat are in good shape and not pulling through or loose. If you step into your seat and it moves, that is not good! For a visual, hold an egg in your hand and shake your hand back and forth. You still have a good egg. Now place that egg in your coffee cup. Hold the cup and shake it back and forth. You don’t want the initial impact to break the seat loose and hope that is the only impact. (True, it typically is…)

Bottom line, no matter what seat choice you make, make sure it’s properly fitted and structurally sound. We are going faster than ever before. The relationship to kinetic energy goes up with the square of the speed. (i.e. a small increase in speed = a larger impact potential) It’s more important than ever to take a look at all aspects of your safety equipment and make sure its solid.

BTW…. after Sebring (and Road America) I will add a head support. I almost did after Jean Luc’s crash at Road America and this is now the 2nd one that is telling me to do something. I won’t ignore this message!
Tray
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:20 pm
+1 on all counts, Tray.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:38 pm
Tray wrote:My biggest issue with the Fiberglass Seat is its connection to the car. It’s just not as solid.


I never really thought about this. Connections to the car are pathetic, and harnesses aren't going to hold you left/right. Rivets/bolts at the firewall, and the structures on the sides are very crush-able meaning you could collapse left or right. I wonder why there's no connection to the sub-belt cross member? Something to consider.

All that being said, the basic fiberglass seat is a perfect fit for me (6'1" 225). I would consider adding more shoulder/hip blocking.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:57 pm
ncbted wrote:Last year I happened to sit next to 2 folks from NASCAR's safety organization on a flight to Charlotte. I showed them photos of my seat at the time, which included a Butler seat and the "new-style" Butler head support. Both gents disliked the head support without adding shoulder support. They were adamant that in a side impact, my head would stop but my upper body would continue moving - this could cause a neck injury.


That was probably Tom Gideon and John Patalak. I know them, they're pretty smart guys to say the least.
http://www.nascar.com/content/nascar/en ... d-sae.html
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:50 pm
I love the idea of being able to pour a bead set into my spec racer. I hope that seat goes into production. The only suggestion I would make is that the crotch belt holes should be wider and potentially reinforced for the larger 6pt belts, and that the bracing where it attaches to the walls and back frame rail could be reinforced to mitigate some of the concerns above.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:26 pm
harps17 wrote:...
That was probably Tom Gideon and John Patalak. I know them, they're pretty smart guys to say the least.
http://www.nascar.com/content/nascar/en ... d-sae.html


That paper might be worth reading.

NASCAR used to avoid making detailed rules about safety equipment as a part of the whole independent contractor deal - the assumption being they couldn't be held liable when someone got hurt. Then after the Earnhardt crash, they went in the other direction.

My friend the seat builder told me that having two inches for the head to accelerate before hitting something solid increases the force of impact something like 10x. He also said the first time they did the crash test the 1/4" steel seat mounts broke.

[don't hold me to the exact numbers, it was quite a while ago.]

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:52 pm
John, hope your compression fracture is not too serious.

I have a thick pad the wraps around the very sharp and dangerous steering shaft mount under the mid section where your knees usually hit. I am sure it has saved my knees in past events.

Would be hard to pad the steering shaft although not impossible.

Big problem is the room we have for our legs to bounce around- would be better for us to have a smaller forward cockpit with smooth sides and little area for our feet to get caught in between the peddles ( frontal side impacts such as happened at Three rivers pro race).

Re your seat- a problem is anybody taller than me (6 ft) is often too tall for the angle and elevation of the Butler. You are better off reclined with good submarine belts and I pad my lumbar area to create a little lumbar lordosis in my Buttler. I do have the shoulder supports and added the older version of the head support to my seat a few years ago. Prior to adding the head support I had a huge crash at Summit and did not suffer rib damage even after hitting the berm at 90 MPH, backwards and cartwheeling to a stop. I was a little sore in the neck and ribs but relatively minor.

So I think the shoulder supports work well to prevent rib injuries (my seat is very snug at the ribs- I was lucky to fit into the seat as I bought the car with the Buttler, Warren Stillwell's old car and seat) just added the head restraint.

Heal fast.
Hope to see you at Atlanta or VIR.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:32 pm
dave wrote:My friend the seat builder told me that having two inches for the head to accelerate before hitting something solid increases the force of impact something like 10x. He also said the first time they did the crash test the 1/4" steel seat mounts broke.

[don't hold me to the exact numbers, it was quite a while ago.]

Dave


Yes, NASCAR mandates a maximum of 1" between your helmet and the SFI 45.2 foam in the head surround. It is optional to fill that 1" with some soft foam for comfort. There's also a minimum height for the head surround, which is also very important, but difficult to explain in text. Basically, you want it as high as you are comfortable and still able to see. It needs to be high enough to capture the Cg of your head.
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