Seat Safety

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:34 pm
breton wrote:On the steering column, I've always had this padded with a piece of rollbar padding. Note that there is an authorized modification in the GCR to cleanly and smoothly cut off the unused portion.

While you can't move the fiberglass seat forward, there's nothing in the rules preventing you from putting in a reasonable amount of foam (though "reasonable" is subjective and not a term published in the GCR.) I recall in the Sports Renault days that we had a very small racer woman from Hawaii that came to race in So Cal, who had a seat insert and head rest custom made to fit the fiberglass seat so she could reach the steering wheel and pedals. This is one area where the rules may need updating, since it's allowed to foam the seat, but not to increase the thickness of the headrest.

I bring up the headrest because that's a critical element as well if you move your head forward in the fiberglass seat, even with the HANS. I believe that one of the most serious injuries sustained in an SR was from a driver who had foamed the seat to move his position forward, but did not pad out the headrest to compensate, and sustained a serious neck injury in a crash. My points are not to discourage building a safe environment but be careful about unintended consequences (e.g. being able top quickly exit the car in the event of a fire.)

The compression fracture is a challenge (I've suffered two in racing accidents; one in a kart and one in the SRF). With a steeper seat angle, more energy is transferred to the lower back, so I'm not sure a more reclined position would be beneficial (though I have since added Confour padding to my Butler seat to offer some cushioning.)


Bob brings up some great points. We're talking about fairly sophisticated safety engineering here and, yes, there can be unintended consequences. In the meantime, my seat is coming out anyway for some work so, in addition to the thigh bolsters I'm already adding, I'll be bolting on the Butler Shoulder Supports:

http://pitstopusa.com/c-132944-cockpit-interior-seats-shoulder-supports-butlerbuilt-shoulder-supports.html

Bob mentioned Confor padding and from what I've learned that's the stuff you want if you're adding foam padding inserts. That's NASA astronaut seat stuff and its big advantage is that it resists permanently compressing -- that's very important -- and offers superior protection over garden variety foam.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:10 pm
Bob Devol wrote:...
Bob mentioned Confor padding and from what I've learned that's the stuff you want if you're adding foam padding inserts. That's NASA astronaut seat stuff and its big advantage is that it resists permanently compressing -- that's very important -- and offers superior protection over garden variety foam.


I believe it is fire resistant, too.

I knew someone who was developing seats for NASCAR a few years ago. They have gotten really serious. One thing about our Butler's he mentioned is the way the sides wrap around the chest is not good. In an incident, the belts stretch and the chest goes forward and partially through the wrap around part and then gets pinched (he used a stronger word than pinched) when the driver bounces back.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:36 pm
So I'll be the insane voice here... I continue to be a fan of the fiberglass seat. Is it as safe as a top notch race seat? No, of course not.
Is it as safe as a non-perfectly fit Butler? I believe that it is, and potentially more so.

I've had the pleasure of driving cars with seats covering the full gamut of options. This includes Keith Verges' butler that bruised my ribs for a week after 2 laps (yes, he was a much smaller guy than I am) and Clay's butler in which (this is the truth) I found myself moving my right arm *inside* the side bolster to shift. I've also driven cars with tiny to huge fiberglass seats.
At the end of the day, I prefer the fiberglass seat for a number of reasons.
The fiberglass provides side support (assuming you don't foam yourself out of the contour) up through the shoulders. It doesn't sit me any where near as high in the car as any Butler I've ever tried. The Butlers not only worry me concerning my helmet height (I think John and I are about the same size) but they also cant my legs up which causes my knees to have issues with the dash/steering wheel.
Every Butler I've ever driven (even the ones that have felt near custom-molded for me) has worried me in those areas, plus they've always made me feel that in a side impact my ribs were going to take way more of the brunt than I wanted.

On the downside, on two occasions (once in the esses at VIR and once at MSRH) I have actually taken a shot to the nethers (aka "the t'aint") *through* the fiberglass seat when center-punching a curb longitudinally. That, friends, it not confidence-inspiring.

I just figured I'd throw in some defense for the much-maligned fiberglass seat so that folks don't feel like they are in a death trap if they still choose that option. :)

On another safety note, I'll take this moment to hit on a pet peeve of mine.
If you have your brake bias adjuster on a metal tab of any sort sticking out into the cockpit (most have it on the right hand side, above the shifter), play this little game.
Imagine slamming your knee to the right and up in a hard impact. Now imagine the fileting effect that tab could have on your leg.
I'm not a fan of that placement, personally.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:31 pm
The fiberglass seat has always looked safer to me as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:33 am
As DENNY mentioned the bias tab I have a suggestion re the dead pedal. I suggest wrapping the pedal post with pad and removing the actual pedal. You can still use the pad covered tube as a support. I did this fix after a big thump 10 years ago on the left side and my foot hit the edge of the pedal. Still hurts.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:51 am
I made a foam insert for the fiberglass seat. Used sheet foam. Started with a full sheet of thin foam covering the seat, then added little pieces to the back where needed to make the shape fit my butt and sides tightly. Attached the little pieces to the back of the main sheet using spray adhesive. Then covered the whole thing with a piece of Nomex fabric I got at Pegasus racing. Attached that to the foam using spray adhesive, then sewed through the whole thing to hold it in a few places. Attached that foam insert to the seat using some Velcro, as I recall, although by the time I was done it fit pretty securely. Fits me well and tightly, so tight that my son complains he can't get his butt to fit into my seat. After I put in the Butler head restraints, I added some shoulder pads. Got some foam made for racing seats from a website in Charlotte North Carolina as I recall. Cut the foam to extend the small shoulder wings that are part of the fiberglass seat shape. The foam pieces attach to the middle section body fiberglass, and with a step off, also to the aluminum inside side of the car. Again, I made these in layers, gluing the foam together with some spray adhesive. And covered them with some leftover Nomex and gorilla tape. They are held in place to the sides of the car using Mushroomhead Velcro. These hold me in place well, although doing this again I might make them a little looser. Occasionally the one on the right side gets in the way a little bit when shifting. The thing I like about them is that they are large enough that I cannot move beyond their reach once I am belted. And they transfer side loads to my shoulders. As I recall, when I did this work, I checked the GCR, and it did appear that we are permitted to add foam to make our cars fit better.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:43 am
From personal experience, the fiberglass seat is great right up to the point that it shears off its mountings. At that point, all you have restraining you are the belts and they do a great job of fracturing your ribs. In addition to being painful, fractured ribs can lead to a punctured lung. Once the seat mounts break, the front of the seat also can pivot upward which brings your legs into contact with the bracket for the steering shaft.

I believe the mounts on the Butler are less likely to shear in a severe impact. That is why I now prefer the Butler to the fiberglass seat.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:17 pm
Racer X wrote: On another safety note, I'll take this moment to hit on a pet peeve of mine.
If you have your brake bias adjuster on a metal tab of any sort sticking out into the cockpit (most have it on the right hand side, above the shifter), play this little game.
Imagine slamming your knee to the right and up in a hard impact. Now imagine the fileting effect that tab could have on your leg.
I'm not a fan of that placement, personally.


I like my fiberglass seat too. My butt fits firmly in the seat and my shoulders are supported so that I can relax into the seat and not feel like I need to use the steering wheel to hold myself up when going through the corners.

Prior to my conversion to Gen3, my bias adjuster was mounted on the left aluminum side panel. After the conversion, Motion mounted it on the right side bar. I have it rotated as far as possible to the outside so my leg doesn't hit it when I'm getting in and out of the car. I do prefer it mounted on the left panel. Rotate the top of the knob to the front for more front bias, etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:51 pm
Denny, I agree. We have two cars, one with the fiberglass seat and the other with Butler. I much prefer the fiberglass. I haven't poured an insert in the fiberglass seat, but if I was going to continue racing I would do it. I not only like it better for safety but it's so much easier to get out of in a hurry if you need to. I am up there in age, find it a real pain in the ass to get out of the Butler. Last year I was trying to get out of the butler and tore my rotator cuff. Result surgery, 6 weeks in a sling and 4 months of physical therapy.

I do wish there was an easier way of fastening the fiberglass seat down as it is a pain to reinstall

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:35 am
If you are insistent on the fiberglass seats maybe pouring beads/impact foam behind the seat to give it structure would be a good idea. Right now a lot of those seats are old and even more brittle than they were the day they were made. Yes, many of them have survived some big hits, but why chance one breaking while you are sitting in it.
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