Weekend Double format generic poll

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:43 am
MikeyB33 wrote:.
I like the proposed new/alternative format - assuming that when you say "..and qualifying race# [next]" you mean best-lap times, not final position in race. Doing it this way should only be unfair for someone getting taken out early in a race, which might(?!!) encourage greater efforts by people towards cleaner race starts. (And as to toss-worst-result-of-3, I have no opinion.)


Good point, but if the middle race is run under poor(er) conditions compared to the first race (e.g. rain or cold track), then it becomes meaningless unless that middle race itself is a sanction race.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:11 pm
MikeyB33 wrote:....
As to getting money back: I thought that's what "Thunderhill Reward$" program was all about-!! Speaking of, I haven't heard Boo about this in recent months - any idea if they're still doing this??
...

Cheers -
mike
SRF #53, SF Region


That is the latest version of how SF Properties (Thunderhill) pays a "dividend" to their stockholder (San Francisco Region). The story behind it is nobody ever expected the track to be as successful as it was, but once it paid off its debt (to the region), it was making a ton of money. Some people thought the region should be seeing more benefit from its ownership of the track (since the for profit / not for profit combination precludes giving big discounts to the club, etc.).

So about 10 years ago (around the last contested election) some new people got on the board and we voted to start paying a dividend to the club (originally $50,000 / year).

I was told the Thunderhill Rewards program (random awards to drivers) is a replacement for the dividend. I haven't actually seen a real financial statement for the region for a while, so I'm not sure when they stopped doing the dividend thing.

Dave
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:58 pm
Format could work depending on whether it's a 2-day or 3-day schedule. Self-crewing or with support could also be an issue as there would be little prep or repair time between races.

One potential side-effect if a race could be dropped is that it would probably make sense, strategically, to drop out of a race if you know you won't get a good finish to save tires/car (doing a "qualifying" lap first to set your grid for the next race, if possible), or skip the last race if you've had good finishes in the first two races (again, for tire/car preservation.)

As I recall from racing in SoCal, there were no practice sessions; first session was qualifying, then race (repeat and rinse). Pain for those of us who could not take the time off for test days, but did at least make two-day weekends a double race format. Other than Laguna, both Sears and Thunderhill offer pre-race test days so those events could remain two-day affairs.

Want more racers?
1) Make every race a "Rational" format so there's more than one or two dates to draw out-of-region National drivers. Providing additional incentives for out-of-region and out-of-division drivers (e.g. rewards drawing). For 3-day weekends, make the Rationals at least a double (or potentially triple) event.

2) Incent those drivers doing the minimum to maintain their licenses to come out more often. For example, let's have a random drawing across all drivers that pulls out some real money rather than tricking out $100 rewards throughout a bunch of run groups. Put in a couple of big prizes (e.g. $1,000) and then some "incentive to play" prizes (like half the entry fee for the next event).

3) Drop Thunderhill in the Summer - no harm in dropping out one month off the schedule if we make it up elsewhere, especially if we move a more compressed schedules (e.g. 3 rather than 4 weeks between events - with a Summer break). We could easily stretch the schedule to late October (NASA has two events at Sonoma in late Oct/Nov). This could alleviate the issue where the workers are over-loaded supporting Pro events in the Summer as well.

4) Get our time back at Sears /Sonoma raceway. NASA seems to have no problem getting dates there running 6 weekends there in 2012. In the ideal world a nine-weekend format (3 at each track) in both 2 and 3-day formats could be a draw with the right scheduling and mix of formats (including National/Rational),

5) Scheduling - if we going to keep racers in-region and draw from out-of-region, we need to better coordinate, especially within the Division and with SoCal, since they are our biggest pool of "discretionary" racers outside of the region.

6) Entry cost - take some of the "incentive" money to subsidize the ever increasing entry prices. We need to end up with a balanced budget but that does not mean that every weekend needs to turn a profit.

7) Do something different to build the driver pool - TTE/HPDE in NASA are their financial underpinnings and they have no competition from SCCA. TTE is a good compromise that would fit the SCCA model (it's essentially the Solo I class that was abandoned years ago) to offer race-prepared cars a no-contact opportunity for track time, while immersing them in the racing experience. If we run a a double race weekend in two days, then let's fill up a 3rd day with additional driving/racing groups from outside the "family" (ala Porsche Club, BMW Club, "track day" cars, etc.). Throw in a one-day driving school periodically. We have some great "salespeople" in SCCA; we need to draw some "new blood" to the group

There's more, but I've droned on long enough. We have a great pool of drivers available that need more motivation to participate; let's ask them why they don't participate more. We have a great pool of drivers outside the region, as well that we need to better understand. Finally, we have the "new blood" issue; how to get the new drivers into the racing side (e.g. what's are "conversion rate" of Autocross to Club Racing - and vice versa). Look to the "track day" side of the business either to "convert" or join in the fun in their own way if we offer the opportunity. They are out there; we see them at test days, track days and NASA event; let's go get them!
Bob Breton - SRF 51 - San Francisco Region
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:54 pm
Bob,

You bring up a lot of great points especially about having effective feeder to SCCA racing such as solo/HDPE. The region treats racing and solo as two completely unrelated activities. Just look at our region's web site calendar, racing events are listed on one calendar, solo events are listed on a totally different calendar. There is no attempt at cross pollination between these two activities. I probably would attend more solo events, if the club did something as simple as list the events on the same calendar. (don't get me started on another rant about the web site - it does virtually nothing to promote the club or encourage driver participation / entries).
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:49 pm
Speaking of schedule conflicts - Cal Club's schedule is out, looks like more of the same (unless SF region does something different than usual).
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:39 pm
breton wrote:3) Drop Thunderhill in the Summer - no harm in dropping out one month off the schedule if we make it up elsewhere, especially if we move a more compressed schedules (e.g. 3 rather than 4 weeks between events - with a Summer break). We could easily stretch the schedule to late October (NASA has two events at Sonoma in late Oct/Nov). This could alleviate the issue where the workers are over-loaded supporting Pro events in the Summer as well.

4) Get our time back at Sears /Sonoma raceway. NASA seems to have no problem getting dates there running 6 weekends there in 2012. In the ideal world a nine-weekend format (3 at each track) in both 2 and 3-day formats could be a draw with the right scheduling and mix of formats (including National/Rational),

5) Scheduling - if we going to keep racers in-region and draw from out-of-region, we need to better coordinate, especially within the Division and with SoCal, since they are our biggest pool of "discretionary" racers outside of the region.


As a current board member, I love reading all of these ideas! This is the kind of stuff that would be awesome to get sent to the board. While we have SRF drivers on the board, it's hard to parse out suggestions from discussion on a forum (even when bullet pointed). You can use our feedback form anytime to provide input: http://feedback.sfsrscca.org (I created this form earlier this year and it has been distributed in various channels but I just added the short URL for it; hopefully easier for us to all remember and use).

Just two things I wanted to touch on to take into consideration for your feedback:

Scheduling

The calendaring process for SFR is like the world's hardest puzzle. First we get Pro dates from Laguna and Sears. They change every year. Without our workers, we wouldn't get loud days @ Laguna and entry fees would be substantially higher. Then we get our regional dates from Laguna. For the last two years since I've been on the board, we've been trying to get a second date from Sears. The catch is that many car clubs run the same weekends every year so as our schedule changes, it's very, very hard for the track to find us a free weekend that also fits into the calendar. Now, with those dates, we then plug in the Thunderhill dates we want while trying to account for the following:

* Prevent the workers from having back-to-back weekends
* Spread out the events to be roughly 4 weeks apart.
* Don't start too early or end too late when rain is a factor. Because drivers receive a full refund if they don't turn a wheel, usually 30%+ of our racers abandon ship if the forecast looks bad which results in significant losses. We do have margin built into our budget but it isn't "profit" per se: we use it to do things like replace emergency trucks when they get old (which we had to do twice this year) and ensure we have well-equipped crews and smoothly run events.

Keep in mind that even when we're not supporting a pro race (like IRL or WTCC at Sears), Pro dates eliminate *weeks* of availability from the track. Moto GP, between preparation, event and clean up removes an entire month in the middle of the summer from Laguna IIRC.

When you factor in all of these constraints, the calendar almost sets itself. We don't have the expected flexibility when juggling three different racetracks and the extensive pro schedule of the Bay Area.

We do look at Cal Club and Oregon's schedules and if we have the choice, we always choose to avoid a conflict - that is better for both regions. Unfortunately, only a couple of events per year can be shifted without fouling everything else up. I worked with Ceci earlier this year from Cal Club - they felt we weren't considering their race schedule while setting our dates. I sent her our planning calendar and she wrote back understanding what we're faced with.

This is considerably easier for Cal Club and Oregon who run fewer events, do not have the same Pro support schedule and run at tracks with less demand. Mike builds a calendar that shows all of the constraints with color coding and it's bloody depressing to realize that we have very limited control as each requirement is applied.

NASA bases their schedule mostly around Sears and that gives them much greater flexibility to get available dates. And while they have lots of Sears dates, they don't run at Laguna.

None of this is to say, "Poor us!" We get to race at three world-class tracks year in and year out, we're the only non-pro group with loud race days at Laguna and we enjoy California weather. It's pretty sweet, but also a bit complicated.

Entry Costs / Rewards Money

breton wrote:2) Incent those drivers doing the minimum to maintain their licenses to come out more often. For example, let's have a random drawing across all drivers that pulls out some real money rather than tricking out $100 rewards throughout a bunch of run groups. Put in a couple of big prizes (e.g. $1,000) and then some "incentive to play" prizes (like half the entry fee for the next event).

6) Entry cost - take some of the "incentive" money to subsidize the ever increasing entry prices. We need to end up with a balanced budget but that does not mean that every weekend needs to turn a profit.

7) Do something different to build the driver pool - TTE/HPDE in NASA are their financial underpinnings and they have no competition from SCCA. TTE is a good compromise that would fit the SCCA model (it's essentially the Solo I class that was abandoned years ago) to offer race-prepared cars a no-contact opportunity for track time, while immersing them in the racing experience. If we run a a double race weekend in two days, then let's fill up a 3rd day with additional driving/racing groups from outside the "family" (ala Porsche Club, BMW Club, "track day" cars, etc.). Throw in a one-day driving school periodically. We have some great "salespeople" in SCCA; we need to draw some "new blood" to the group


Entry fees did go up, but they went up for the first time in 3 years. The fees were held low as long as possible but car counts dropped with the economy and costs went up. I do not believe the economy is to blame for the entirety of the SCCA nor the Regions woes, but I don't think anyone disagrees that disposable income hobbies like racing took a big hit with the recession.

Some of the ideas here are contradictory - with the asphalt rental at Sears running ~$26k/day, adding more Sears dates to our schedule would only put further budget pressure on entry fees. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get another Sears date, but all of these issues are connected and when you push in one direction, you may inadvertently pull in another.

As noted earlier in the thread, the $100 drawings are Thunderhill Rewards money which comes in the form of a dividend from the track. I voted against the drawings as I don't think random money from the sky changes people's behavior but I also don't think $100 makes a difference to a racer's budget. It's nice, but it doesn't change whether or not you will prep the car, tow and commit a weekend to have some fun. It also doesn't change, for the majority of drivers who run 2 weekends or less a year with us, whether or not they are going to come out. But neither does a $25 cheaper entry fee (which is what it would amount to roughly if spread across all the events).

My opinion is the dividend should be used to make our program more exciting and more visible. We want to have the racing program with the best bang for the buck, not the cheapest entry fees. The Sonoma Sprints is one example of that - the double Rational format and branded event turned out the most cars we've seen in 5 years.

I hate entry fees as much as anyone - I was hoping when elected I would find there was a secret refund program for the board members since we donate as many as 30 hours a month. Sadly, our pay was tripled and it's still $0. :)

I can tell you from my position working with car clubs across the country at MotorsportReg.com: costs are going up on all fronts from track rentals, to insurance, to ambulance, to food, to fuel, etc. Inflation is a fact of life. I can only state from my two years of experience but the board works ultra-hard to save money wherever possible so we can continue all of the great benefits we have while keeping entry fees affordable.

I appreciate all of the thoughtful input here so far, you SRF guys are pretty smart. ;) Please do feel free to "drone on" using the feedback form at any time about anything. Cheers,


Brian
SM #12
SFR Board Member


PS - Jerry, agreed re: the website. If re-elected, that's on my to do list next year. It's way overdue. That's one of those things our "profit" will help pay for.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:16 pm
Brian,

Thanks for the chime in.
As a competitor (not official) I have mixed emotions about the random drawings. I don't think the $100 changes anybody's approach to racing but having all the drivers together in impound to discuss happy (or upset) moments with their fellows is a good way to conclude races. Note: I realize not everybody feels this way and things differ by Region. Oregon BTW always does full pulls to impound. We may or may not hold everybody in Impound but you do pass thru it.

Personally I'd rather see SFR revert to the frequent racer money back program. $x credit for each race raced in SFR that I can apply to my next race in SFR.

I agree that reducing entry costs by $50K from The Thunderhill Rewards Program peanut buttered across all entries would not be significant. $25 off each race doesn't mean much, but zero or 1/2 price entry due to $$$ accumulated in a Frequent Racer program and I can "justify" to the Wife that this race entry was cheap :D
Todd Butler
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:20 pm
PS maybe you should consider posting Mike's draft 2013 scheduling calendar?
It is eye opening and headache inducing!

What you said about other clubs having traditional dates is true, Rose Cup in Portland, Memorial Day Double Nat at Pacific. When the Pro dates slide around, and then factor in some of the traditional dates it gets ugly real fast.
Todd Butler
OR/SFR Region
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:55 pm
Todd SRF73 wrote:I don't think the $100 changes anybody's approach to racing but having all the drivers together in impound to discuss happy (or upset) moments with their fellows is a good way to conclude races. Note: I realize not everybody feels this way and things differ by Region. Oregon BTW always does full pulls to impound. We may or may not hold everybody in Impound but you do pass thru it.


+1. I really liked it too and it was one of the reasons behind the drawings to improve the camaraderie. There were both good and bad things about it and we had some difficulties getting it implemented but we learned a lot this year and we'll tweak for next based on driver feedback (hypothesize, test, evaluate, repeat).
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:25 pm
Tony, Back to the drawing board on SFR's schedule. Laguna Seca and ALMS just announced this change: "May 9-11, American Le Mans Monterey."
Have fun.
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